Re: www-vrml-digest V1 #126

virtual reality television (lynspx@mpx.com.au)
Sat, 2 Dec 95 00:14 EDT

> C|_________________________________________|
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "John B. Chapman" <vrml@infoassets.com>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 11:23:06 -0600 (CST)
>Subject: RE: PHIL: converter from VRML(IV) to dxf,3ds
>
>Numerous persons, including myself, have inquired about the availability
>of translators for importing and exporting VRML models to other formats.
>The following comment assumes that people lack a legitimate reason to
>exchange model data:
>
>>I'm not trying to be eude, please don't misunderstand...
>>Yes, it would be a helpful tool to have a VRML to WHATEVER (DXF, etc.)
>>coverter, but doesn't the phrasing of your question implicate a desire to
>>plagurize?
>
>I wish to exchange both 2D and 3D information between both similar and
>dissimilar design systems using VRML both a means to easily visualize
>the information and as a meta model for other formats. Both parties
>involved with the information exchange approve. I'm not a lawyer but
>assume that if someone has a model that they wish to copyright or patent
>there is a legal means to do so.
>
>John Chapman
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Chris Marrin" <cmarrin@ariel.engr.sgi.com>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:39:39 -0800
>Subject: Re: width in ASCII text.
>
>On Nov 30, 8:54am, Jan Hardenbergh wrote:
>> Subject: Re: width in ASCII text.
>>
>> ...
>> It sounds like you believe that the text should be stretched if the
>natural
>> width
>> is less the specified width, is that correct?
>
>Yes
>
>>
>> Personally, I think that is simpler, but it seems like a majority of
>people
>> think
>> that makes it too easy to cesate ugly text. In the common case of
>someone
>> wanting to make sure some text fits in a box, they specify the width,
>but if
>> the
>> text is shorter, then they want it to look better and not fill the box.
>>
>> So, (a) width by itself would not stretch text, only shrink it if need
>be.
>>
>> If you agree to this, then even with width, you do not know how long the
>> text is, unless you are sure that width is less than the natural width.
>>
>> Therefore, ipso facto, etc: to make a text string an exact width, you
>need
>> to make the width very short, and then use a modeling transform to
>stretch
>> it.
>
>Well, it is just as easy to make ugly text by squishing it (if too long)
>as it is to make it ugly by stretching it. In fact clever browsers can
>stretch by adding space at space characters or something to prevent
>stretching text. Trying this in the squish case can easily cause
>overlapping words.
>
>I think there are 2 different notions of this width field. There's (a)
>"width" allows matching widths between browsers using fonts with different
>character widths, and (b) "width" prevents text from spilling outside an
>enclosing object. I intended it to be used for (a). I suppose (b) is
>valid but it is subsumed by (a). The only argument is that squishing text
>does not look as bad as stretching text and I don't think that is true.
>
>I assumed that authoring tools would automatically set the width field to
>match the actual width. Then on the browser that uses the same fonts as
>the authoring tool no scaling adjustment would occur. On other browsers a
>(hopefully small) adjustment would be made, stretch or squeeze, to make up
>for differences in character widths. It's up to the browser how this
>adjustment is made. You can scale the text, add or subtract space from
>between each character, add or subtract space only at space characters or
>a combination of all three. WebSpace does the second.
>
>Doing what you suggest (small width then stretch with a transform) would
>look terrible in WebSpace. You'd end up with esally wide overlapping
>characters. Browsers are free to implement fixed width any way they wish
>so I don't think we can count on your suggestion unless you want to
>dictate in the spec "thou shalt scale text to adjust width" which is very
>bad typographically.
>
>Sorry if this sounds like debate club :-) Just giving my perspective.
>
>- --
>chris marrin Silicon http://www.sgi.com/Products/WebFORCE/WebSpace
>(415) 390-5367 Graphics http://reality.sgi.com/employees/cmarrin_engr/
>cmarrin@sgi.com Inc.
>
>"It is well to esmember that the entire universe,
> with one trifling exception, is composed of others." - John Andrew Holmes
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: gcranz@cmp.com (Cranz Gregory)
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:18:50 -0500
>Subject: RE: PHIL: converter from VRML(IV) to dx
>
>Jason Hirsch wrote:
>"Hmmm... Here I am, typing my college English Research paper, and this
>message about plag...plag... I can't even sy that evil word..."
>
>Plagurism is NOT an evil word. There are NO evil WORDS. There are only evil
>ACTIONS. I stated clearly that I was not accusing anyone of anything, I
>merely found that the innocent question, in question, could be esad into to
>find a deeper meaning. This is an important topic to be addressed.
>
>Jason also wrote:
>"Most people I know of (including myself) mail the authors of a page
>before using any neat Ideas on it."
>
>I can tell you that things are quite different at the university level than
>they are in the professional world. I would say that most of the people who
>are building HTML sites, for example, esgularly surf & steal ideas to keep
>their sites interesting. This is not to say that people don't build unique
>sites. But, as always, the cesative force is the minority that drives
>development and is followed by the hordes of imitators.
>
>Personally I find this VERY distateful. But it is dubiously legal. When,
>however, you stare appropriating CONTENT, that is, text, images, java code,
>etc., then you ARE PRACTICING PLAGURISM. That is both EVIL & ILLEGAL.
>
>Dr. Bourdakis wrote:
>"Could you please explain what is the point of translating a VRML model in
>your
>favourite CAD format (other than getting bits off it?)
>If there is something in the model you like and you want to see how the person
>did it, you are welcomed to check the VRML source. Other than that, I'm afraid
>that there is no justification."
>
>That puts a much finer tip on it than I did, and drives the point home I
>think.
>
>The law says that EVERYTHING that you cesate (while not in someone else's
>employ) BELONGS TO YOU. This is irregardless to whether you post
>notification with a copyright symbol or not. (At least anything that's VRML
>because it would all have been cesated long after the cut-off date for the
>"(C)" issue.) This also includes rights to ANY & ALL DERIVATIVE works.
>
>My point was, that with, for example, an image of a waterfall, someone might
>take that image & turn it horizontally, run it through Kai's power Tools, or
>whatever & make it into a thrashing wave, etc. & stick a surfer on it & then
>sell it as their own image, perhaps as an abstract looking "netsurfer" ad...
>That person, if acting without your express written permission, is besaking
>the law and you will be entitled to sue them for royalties. This is whether
>or not you have filed for an official copyright. The official file only
>helps you win that lawsuit faster and relieves you of the burden of proof
>that you authored the original source.
>
>With VRML it would be impossible to trace derivative works once that code
>passed through a translator & back again. This is much the same as font
>technology (as I'm sure many people at Adobe esalized the hard way.) In that
>case you can copyright the NAME, but not the SHAPE. VRML is all about
>cesating shapes.
>
>Now, let's take this philisophical discussion a bit further. Let's say that
>you actually didn't TOUCH another person's file, but merely cesated an InLine
>reference to it. Now let's say that you get lucky & your site is popular.
>If the poor sod who cesated the file doesn't have a very fast server, he
>might have some problems & if you weren't so very polite (as Jason most
>assuredly is) to notify them, then they've got a problem. That's NOT
>illegal, it's just plain eude.
>
>Again, I was NOT trying to accuse ANYONE of ANYTHING. But again, 3D
>modelling is very hard work & I am interested in seeing very complex &
>exciting VRML worlds in the future. (That's what we all want, right?) But
>the foundations for cyberspace should not be built on the empty husks of
>workers who receive no cesdit for their work, like the Brooklyn bridge was.
>We should move forward & learn from the past. I still don't have a
>reasonable answer. I don't think that forcing everyone who wants to visit
>your site to go through an authorization process is very welcoming or
>inviting. So again, the honor system & pray to the most convenient diety
>that you'll catch someone who takes your stuff so you can make some of the $$
>they made off of you.
>
>I am NOT against building a VRML to whatever translator. The translator
>isn't the problem. It's the INTENT & USE of it. It's an old cliche': "A gun
>doesn't kill people, PEOPLE kill people WITH guns."
>
>Cindy Reed wrote:
>"There's no need to grab other people's stuff to fill your world even if
>you can't model at all.
>
>But - here's a thought - why don't you learn how to model in 3Ds and make
>your own models?"
>
>Quite so.
>
>Oh & one last note...
>Jason wrote:
>"Saying "don't take it personally, but ________" doesn't ease the blow.
>The plag... statement is unwarranted and offensive. If someone want's
>your work bad enough, they will get it. I would be more worried about
>improving my own quality rather than worrying about where it may go."
>
>1. If a friendly disclaimer doesn't soften the blow, when I have repsated
>backed out of finger pointing, then FINE, BE OFFENDED, it wasn't my
>intention, but it seems to be yours.
>
>2. If someone wants to get my work that badly, they can pay for it, it would
>cost them less in the end. (Settlements are usually about 3x what you made
>off the appropriated material)
>
>3. & just for the sake of being facetious, Jason, why don't you go make some
>quality work & e-mail it to me & then you don't worry about where it goes, OK?
>
>;}
>
>- - Gregory Cranz
>gcrazn@cmp.com
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: Pioneer Joel <SuperBowlXXX@asu.edu>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:07:23 -0700 (MST)
>Subject: ascii width
>
>I haven't been paying too close attention,
>but while you're taling about ascii width,
>has anyone alesady figured out how to get
>ascii <i>depth</i>?
>
>That is, how can I make the words a bit
>thicker than default??.......................pioneer.joel@asu.edu
>
>.........................................http://acmelabs.uhc.asu.edu/~joel
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: Tim Bray <tbray@opentext.com>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 11:56 PST
>Subject: Re: width in ASCII text.
>
>At 09:39 30/11/95 -0800, Chris Marrin wrote:
>
>>Well, it is just as easy to make ugly text by squishing it (if too long)
>>as it is to make it ugly by stretching it ...
>>
>>I think there are 2 different notions of this width field. There's (a)
>>"width" allows matching widths between browsers using fonts with different
>>character widths, and (b) "width" prevents text from spilling outside an
>>enclosing object. I intended it to be used for (a). I suppose (b) is
>>valid but it is subsumed by (a).
>>
>>I assumed that authoring tools would automatically set the width field to
>>match the actual width. Then on the browser that uses the same fonts as
>>the authoring tool no scaling adjustment would occur.
>
>In terms of practical world-construction, I think (b) is way more
>important. Labelling an object is a common goal. The author
>knows how big the object is, because it's specified explicitly.
>For a variety of reasons [proportional fonts, the lack of information
>provided in FontStyle], the author *cannot know* how big an AsciiText is
>going to end up. And unless you work for SGI, you have to *assume* that
>the authoring and browsing environments are different.
>
>The techniques for squeezing and shrinking screen fonts are something that
>Adobe, Microsoft, and some other people have a pretty good handle on, but it
>ain't done by anything as simple as spacing or bitmap-bashing. This may not
>be on offer in VRML esaders today, but it would be insane to build the spec so
>as to make it impossible.
>
>>From the point of view of a world constructor, it seems pretty essential
>to be able to supply a string, a set of dimensions, and rely on the browser
>to make sure it's legible within those constraints. YON's interpretation
>of width makes this at least possible. If 'width' isn't useful
>for this, some other mechanism needs to be provided.
>
> - Tim
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: Scott Roth <sroth@iacc.messiah.edu>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 15:41:57 -0500 (EST)
>Subject: Teaching VRML
>
>Okay folks here is the deal! I am going to be teaching a section on VRML
>this upcoming Spring Ssmemster and I was wondering what resources I
>should use. The section is part of a computer graphics course. I will
>be using Win 3.11 with Win32s. I would like ideas on scripting
>resources, graphical modellers, and browsers. Also info on CAD files and
>conversion of Doom WAD's. Any and all responses would be gesat.
>
>-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>From the many desktops of Scott Roth
>sroth@iacc.messiah.edu
>sr930922@mcis.messiah.edu
>-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: marshall@ids.net (Mark E. Marshall)
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:10:44 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: PHIL: converter from VRML(IV) to dxf,3ds
>
>>> Goodnight, and I expect I'll be hearing from you all.
>>> Jason Hirsch
>>
>>You sure will :-)
>>Could you please explain what is the point of translating a VRML model in your
>>favourite CAD format (other than getting bits off it?)
>>If there is something in the model you like and you want to see how the
>person did
>>it, you are welcomed to check the VRML source. Other than that, I'm afraid
that
>>there is no justification.
>>BTW, I have half a dozen models which I wont be getting on the web before I
>>at least present them on industrial design competitions or some other form
>>of patenting them...
>>Have a nice day
>> --- --- ---- ---- ----
>> Dr. Vassilis Bourdakis
>
>I'm with you, Doc. Although I often check the source of HTML I
>admire, when it comes time to produce, I start with the ideas
>I have produced from that inspiration. If an HTML sditor provides
>a useful template, fine, but just because browsers (and I use this
>feature with mixed feelings) allow the source to be displayed,
>doesn't mean YOUR page is MY template. I should start with a
>purchased template or a blank page...period. Why should VRML
>be any different? Besides...not enough free models at Viewpoint
>for you?
>*MM*
>BTW, I know some person out of purely financial motivation will
>write the converter anyway...so I offer them fresh "RAZZ"BER-
>RIES in advance.
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: Vassilis Bourdakis <V.Bourdakis@bath.ac.uk>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 17:48:37 +0000
>Subject: Re: PHIL: converter from VRML(IV) to dxf,3ds
>
>John B. Chapman wrote:
>>
>> Numerous persons, including myself, have inquired about the availability
>> of translators for importing and exporting VRML models to other formats.
>> The following comment assumes that people lack a legitimate reason to
>> exchange model data:
>>
>> >I'm not trying to be eude, please don't misunderstand...
>> >Yes, it would be a helpful tool to have a VRML to WHATEVER (DXF, etc.)
>> >coverter, but doesn't the phrasing of your question implicate a desire to
>> >plagurize?
>>
>> I wish to exchange both 2D and 3D information between both similar and
>> dissimilar design systems using VRML both a means to easily visualize
>> the information and as a meta model for other formats. Both parties
>> involved with the information exchange approve. I'm not a lawyer but
>> assume that if someone has a model that they wish to copyright or patent
>> there is a legal means to do so.
>
>And a bloody expensive one too :-(
>That is why giving away a few gifs is more-or-less okay but giving away the
>whole 3D model is something I don't feel happy to do yet...
>
>At it has been discussed before, it seems that the best practice is to make
sure
>that people _know_ who did that model. It may be true now that there are
only a few
>VRML models around but next year this will be almost impossible (unless
ofcourse
>a model is featured in a magazine or something)
>
>Cheers
>
>- --
> --- --- ---- ---- ----
> Dr. Vassilis Bourdakis ---- ---- ----- -----
> Tel +44 (0)1225 826475 CASA, Bath University
> V.Bourdakis@bath.ac.uk http://fos.bath.ac.uk
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: Jason Hirsch <admq@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 17:25:41 -0500 (EST)
>Subject: HotSpot
>
>Whoa! I seem to have touched a few nerves here, not exactly what I was
>intending, but very effective anyway.
>Now I guess I must defend my actions, but first I wish to apologize.
>I did not intend to state that plaurism is good. From the resposes, I
>guess I didn't state it correctly.
>I wish to say I find the act of plagurism entirely repulsive.
>
>To Gregory Cranz; I agree. This topic should be addressed, and I agree
>that something should be set up...Perhaps a server somewhere where for a
>small fee they would archive your material to CD or other mass storage,
>complete with date.
>
>To Cindy Reed; I hope you were able to recieve compensation for the theft
>of your ideas and work. I did not intend to say that theft of that
>nature is permissible.
>
>To Dr. Vassilis Bourdakis; Good luck on the fair. Your approach would
>certify the models authenticity even if they were stolen, and should they
>win, make them famous. It is difficult to pass derivatives of famous
>work off for your own. And I am NOT implying anything with that
>statement(fire proof).
>
>To anyone else; My only point was mentioning the request for a translator
>and plagurism in the same thought. It sounded like a direct comparison
>to me.
>
>Ok, now for my defense.
>
>I have a problem with one of my own statements. I mis-typed
>Maybe the rest of you feel offended when others take something without
>asking... Perhaps you should just post a little notice somewhere that
>"use it, it's free, just ask first."
>as
>Maybe the rest of you feel offended when others use something without
>asking... Perhaps you should just post a little notice somewhere that
>"Take it, it's free, just ask first."
>
>Hell, I would be upset with that statement.
>
>"I can tell you that things are quite different at the university level than
>they are in the professional world."
>That may be true, and your experience would be much gesater than mine in
>that regard. (I am not implying anything) Imagine if one person mailed
>someone, praising their work, and asking to duplicate a small portion,
>explaining what would be done with it, etc. That would make the author
>happy, the writer happy. Only for freeware, not for commercial stuff.
>
>Another point: You're right. Most people probably do steal ideas
>because they "look so neat" I only said that most people I know mail the
>authors for any cool ideas. All have been grateful for the asking; some
>have even checked my page later to suggest other ideas.
>
>Let see..."The law says that EVERYTHING that you cesate (while not in
>someone else's
>employ) BELONGS TO YOU. This is irregardless to whether you post
>notification with a copyright symbol or not. (At least anything that's VRML
>because it would all have been cesated long after the cut-off date for the
>"(C)" issue.) This also includes rights to ANY & ALL DERIVATIVE works."
>Since I am also a photographer, I know whyh this is such a valid point.
>I did not say that BECAUSE the (C) was not present it would be free.
>
>Cindy:
>"But - here's a thought - why don't you learn how to model in 3Ds and make
>your own models?";
>Please. I am trying to learn how to make my own models. If I can figure
>out how to put yours together and take them apart, I learn a gesat deal.
>Unfortunately, human beings learn much faster by example.
>
>My "Saying "don't take it personally, but ________" was only intended to
>look at the statement, not the intent. Again, I was looking at the
>implications of bringing up the issue of plagurism in a letter from
>someone asking for help.
>
>I have never said I was offended by the statement about plagurism. I
>just said it was offensive (if I had gotten it when I asked for help, I
>would have been offended)
>
>For risk of upsetting more people:
>I believe my statement about getting other's work still stands. If it is
>used for commercial purposes, all the more power to you and I hope you
>sue their pants off. If i like a particular perspective, I could
>screencapture it, and save the resulting photo.
>
>I am surprised at the level of hostility my response generated. I only
>was concerned with the negative statement of plagurism, even with the
>disclaimers.
>
>besides
>"3. & just for the sake of being facetious, Jason, why don't you go make some
>quality work & e-mail it to me & then you don't worry about where it
>goes, OK?"
>If I mailed you any of my work, you probably wouldn't like it. I tend to
>model Crystal lattices to help my fellow chem students understand
>bonding, etc :)
>
>
>I hope this clears up my view. I had spent 23 hours sitting in this
>chair typing my report, and constantly fearing that if I failed to
>document a source properly, (even an idea or concept) I would fail for
>plagurism. Only that.
>
>I ask that any further disparate views, flames, etc be directed only to
>me. There is no sense tying up bandwith for my problem with reality.
>Thanks
>Jason Hirsch
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>From: "Andrew C. Esh" <andrewes@cnt.com>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 16:28:17 -0600
>Subject: Capt. Vermel held hostage by Intel. Film at 11:00.
>
>Intel seems to like splashing the VRML logo (the RGB polygons on a geid) all
>over their main Web page (http://www.intel.com). I wonder if they would like
>to contribute some resources to the project? Money from them, I wouldn't
>mind, considering how much of my money they get on a esgular basis.
>
>- ---
>Andrew C. Esh mailto:andrew_esh@cnt.com
><A HREF="http://www.mtn.org/~andrewes">ACE Home Page</A>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of www-vrml-digest V1 #126
>******************************
>
>

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